[Aaron]

Apparently even the brightest of minds can be forgetful...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D'Agapeyeff_cipher

Duplicated here just in case:
75628 28591 62916 48164 91748 58464 74748 28483 81638 18174
74826 26475 83828 49175 74658 37575 75936 36565 81638 17585
75756 46282 92857 46382 75748 38165 81848 56485 64858 56382
72628 36281 81728 16463 75828 16483 63828 58163 63630 47481
91918 46385 84656 48565 62946 26285 91859 17491 72756 46575
71658 36264 74818 28462 82649 18193 65626 48484 91838 57491
81657 27483 83858 28364 62726 26562 83759 27263 82827 27283
82858 47582 81837 28462 82837 58164 75748 58162 92000

[Dutch]

   I have been doing an analysis of this cipher using Excel.  It seems that if the cipher is divided into 2-digit groups, the first digit of each group is a 6, 7, 8, 9, or 0.  The second digit of each group is a 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5.  This would amost certainly indicate some sort of checkerboard.  I tried a count of each digit seperately for the possibility of a monome-dinome cipher, but no definitive results.  Also, since D'Agapeyeff was a Frenchman, the text might also be in French.

Dutch

[Aaron]

Good catch! I'll have to try that myself, thank goodness for French classes.

[Stun90]

Way to go Dutch! you have some good info there. He was not very good at encoding so I doubt that this is very complex. And also, I never thought of it being in french. Will make it moree difficult but not impossible. Just remember that since that he was not very good at coding, it is possible that he may have made errors. Errors may or may not cause problems, dependiong on how severe the problems.

[Dutch]

   I have the book by D'Agapeyeff and after reading it, I have a new theory concerning his cipher.  After doing a frequency analysis, it seemed that the frequency distribution was rather flat and not indicative of a simple substitution cipher.  For those of you who have seen the book, on page 111, there is a cipher shown which duplicates the ADFGVX system of WWI.  Use a 5x5 checkerboard, use transposition and then use the result as the cipher text.  I am seriously thinking that he used a transposition step in his cipher.  What does everyone think?

Dutch

[Aaron]

I find it highly suspicious that there is only one zero roughly halfway in and 3 zeros near the end. Perhaps those are the ends of paragraphs, and maybe there are two separate parts to the cipher that the zeros indicate.

[tonybaloney]

Something strange going on here - if this was based on a 5x5 matrix filled with the alphabet (keyword or not) - then the lowest frqcy numbers 92,93,71,94,04 should represent the low frqcy consonants - writing the cipher in a 14x14 grid they all fall in the final column - the odds against this are astronomical - I think these numbers may not represent letters at all - maybe we should be thinking cartographically rather than cryptograhically!


75 62 82 85 91 62 91 64 81 64 91 74 85 84
64 74 74 82 84 83 81 63 81 81 74 74 82 62
64 75 83 82 84 91 75 74 65 83 75 75 75 93
63 65 65 81 63 81 75 85 75 75 64 62 82 92
85 74 63 82 75 74 83 81 65 81 84 85 64 85
64 85 85 63 82 72 62 83 62 81 81 72 81 64
63 75 82 81 64 83 63 82 85 81 63 63 63 04
74 81 91 91 84 63 85 84 65 64 85 65 62 94
62 62 85 91 85 91 74 91 72 75 64 65 75 71
65 83 62 64 74 81 82 84 62 82 64 91 81 93
65 62 64 84 84 91 83 85 74 91 81 65 72 74
83 83 85 82 83 64 62 72 62 65 62 83 75 92
72 63 82 82 72 72 83 82 85 84 75 82 81 83
72 84 62 82 83 75 81 64 75 74 85 81 62 92


Tony

[Aaron]

Map coordinates? Now that's an interesting possibility.

[tonybaloney]

I was thinking more along the lines - 'four colour theorum' than map coordinates - bearing in mind we don't know which way he stripped it out of the 14x14 grid (the previously underlined low frqcy No's could be along the bottom etc.) - also  that D'Agapeyeff was not a cryptographer - is it possible that he has concealed a picture or diagram under these numbers which must be coloured according to some set rule to reveal the image? - its a bit offbeat but its the only thing i can think of that would put all these No's in the same line - eg. if the picture was of a horse the hooves would be the only part coloured black and all appear on the same line etc. etc.

Tony

[tonybaloney]

The following map of the National Grid (in 100km squares) comes from D'Agapeyeff's book on Cartography -



Any connection? - although each square has it's own digram (not given in his book) but you can find it by Googling 'National Grid' images - it doesn't seem to lead anywhere with most of his numbers ending up in the North Sea - so probably just another dead end.

[Aaron]

Have you tried replacing 67890 with 12345? Maybe then it would yield proper map coordinates... especially considering the higher numbers might only be there to imply a grid format.

[tonybaloney]

Better still do the following –

Divide a large sheet of paper into squares and number as below

05 15 25 35 45 55 65 75 85 95
04 14 24 34 44 54 64 74 84 94
03 13 23 33 43 53 63 73 83 93
02 12 22 32 42 52 62 72 82 92
01 11 21 31 41 51 61 71 81 91

next using the frequencies from the cipher pile a stack of pennies/cents on the relevant squares

next get your eye as near to 04 as you can and look at what you’ve just created (be careful not to knock them over)

what do you see – what does 04 represent? – where is 73?

[Aaron]

Tony, here's your suggested grid:


And here's my grid:


I colored it so that bright blue is the lowest frequency and bright green is the highest frequency, thus creating a sort of sea-level map. It looks almost like an island with a landmark in the middle (where the hole is) in my picture... yours is similar except that the 04 is out in the middle of nowhere. I believe mine is correct as 6-0 is the only thing each pair starts with, and 1-5 is all they ever end with.

Of course, there's also the faint possibility that replacing each pair with its frequency would yield something interesting...

[tonybaloney]

My eyesight isn't what it used to be & if I bend down too quickly I get a bit dizzy -
bit what I saw looking from behind 04 was -




04 - Ellis Island      73 Central Park

How convincing is that?!

[Aaron]

Even more convincing if you consider this map grid of Manhattan:


Central Park is at 73rd and 7th, and Ellis Island could be said to roughly line up with 4th street...

If that truly is the answer though, it's certainly an odd solution for a cipher. Artistic, though!

[tonybaloney]

Aaron - before you get carried away - to say 'Central Park is at 73rd' when it's also at 59th through to 110th is a bit misleading and how 'Ellis Island could be said to roughly line up with 4th street' when 4th street is at Washington Square I just don't understand (unless your eyesights far worse than mine). However I thank you for pointing those out as this side of the pond we give our streets names and that aspect of it just hadn't occured to me.

What would be convincing is if the top 17 highest buildings around Central Park in the late 1930's corresponded in height and location.

[Aaron]

Well, I did say roughly. And yes, it's not very convincing since Central Park is rather huge, but it's still a nifty observation. I like your artistic sketches.

[Cat]

Something strange going on here - if this was based on a 5x5 matrix filled with the alphabet (keyword or not) - then the lowest frqcy numbers 92,93,71,94,04 should represent the low frqcy consonants - writing the cipher in a 14x14 grid they all fall in the final column - the odds against this are astronomical - I think these numbers may not represent letters at all - maybe we should be thinking cartographically rather than cryptograhically!


75 62 82 85 91 62 91 64 81 64 91 74 85 84
64 74 74 82 84 83 81 63 81 81 74 74 82 62
64 75 83 82 84 91 75 74 65 83 75 75 75 93
63 65 65 81 63 81 75 85 75 75 64 62 82 92
85 74 63 82 75 74 83 81 65 81 84 85 64 85
64 85 85 63 82 72 62 83 62 81 81 72 81 64
63 75 82 81 64 83 63 82 85 81 63 63 63 04
74 81 91 91 84 63 85 84 65 64 85 65 62 94
62 62 85 91 85 91 74 91 72 75 64 65 75 71
65 83 62 64 74 81 82 84 62 82 64 91 81 93
65 62 64 84 84 91 83 85 74 91 81 65 72 74
83 83 85 82 83 64 62 72 62 65 62 83 75 92
72 63 82 82 72 72 83 82 85 84 75 82 81 83
72 84 62 82 83 75 81 64 75 74 85 81 62 92


Tony

. What if we are looking at all the first numbers between 6 and 0 belonging to 1 grid set, and all the numbers between 1 and 5 belonging to a 2nd, overlapping and slightly different grid set.

With that in mind, I tried it out, and (with u/v in the same cell for the 5x5) got for the first line:

76 88 96 96 86 97 88 67 = F N E E D K N B = "first need key, note bene . . .)

For the other numbers, you have (after keeping the same grid but shifting "z" to the "a" slot and moving everything down 1 unit

52 25 12 14 14 14 54 = I V E O O O S " = "I've 3 'o's"

This would reveal a possible total overlapping line 1 message of "F NEED K   N.B. I'VE 000S"

Here is the grid for 6-0

  6 7 8 9 0
6 a b c d e
7 f g h i j
8 k l m n o
9 p q r s t
0 u/v w x y z

Gris 1-5

  1 2  3 4 5
1 z a b c d
2 e f g h i
3 j k l m n
4 o p q r s
5 t u/v w x y z